I am Jewish and a Zionist. I would like a dialog. I have been reading your website and I am impressed by the honesty of your views, although I don’t agree with them at all.
I have read a lot of writings by Arabs/Palestinians. I have read about life and conditions in the West Bank and Gaza. I have read a lot about life in the UNRWA refugees camps. It’s utterly horrible. I wouldn’t want it. I wouldn’t want my city occupied by a foreign army. I wouldn’t want to have to go through a checkpoint to travel to the next town. I wouldn’t want middle of the night arrests. I wouldn’t want a foreign army’s helicopters above my town. I live a comfortable life. Wouldn’t those people want the same comforts of life? Of course.
The Palestinians are victims, no doubt about it, but of who and what? There is one key thought that they refuse to enter their minds. They refuse to consider or accept that the root cause of all of this is that they have always wished to destroy, and have always taken steps to destroy, the State of Israel. They don’t see that everything Israel does is a reaction to that. I repeat. They don’t see that everything Israel does is a reaction to that. Israel considers that it is defending itself. Arabs never once acknowledge this in their writings. You never hear it uttered from their lips.
Read what Israelis and Jewish people are saying. This is self-defense. You may not agree that it is self-defense, but you must accept that this is the Jewish and Israeli perception and the thought behind their actions. Israelis and Jewish people have absolutely no wish to kill Arabs/Palestinians for fun!
Why don’t Arabs including Palestinians accept that their desire and intention to destroy the State of Israel is the root cause of the conflict? Two reasons I believe.
First, it’s easier, more comfortable, and politically correct for them to see themselves as victims. Some people are like that – always feeling sorry for themselves and seeing themselves as victims – and never seeing that anything they do themselves may be the cause of their problems.
Second, because they can never give up their wish and intention to destroy the State of Israel. They would rather die than accept Israel’s existence. And if they did accept Israel’s existence, perhaps they would have to accept that after all these years, they were victims of themselves.
In recent years we have the new factor of religion. Israel is on “Islamic” land. I am old enough to remember when religion was not a factor as it is today.
Most Jews and Arabs including Palestinians don’t bother to look at the other side’s writings or listen carefully to what they are saying – because they can’t bear to listen. Everyone is yelling but no one is listening to the other side. They are just listening to their own side.
If Israel believed, truly believed, that the Arabs and Palestinians no longer desired to destroy Israel and would never again try to destroy or attack Israel, wonderful things would happen. Do any of you see that?
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 9:03 pm
no debate with JEW
stop killing civilians and we’ll talk then
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 9:41 pm
Interesting response. Thank you. Anyone else?
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 10:27 pm
hey..
now tell me this..
why-ever would arabs accept israel and not want to make it vanish when it just emerged out of nowhere 50 years ago,to a land where muslims,christians,AND jews were living peacefully all together,and said : we want this land…to create the state of isreal.
is this the way things go around this world?!
i believe we have the right to fight…to defend our land…
You…on the other hand…..em,welll….ur just the aggressive new kid!
“for me…i dont believe there’s such a thing as the state of isreal…there are
biliions of zionists..forcing themselves on a land that “DOES NOT” belong to them….and they dare claim their rights!…its like a foreigner at ur HOME….telling u what do do….”
how about jews accepting the fact that there’s no way u can snatch this land away from its people…n just go find some other “deserted” peace of land to satisfy their needs?
really…why force urselves in the middle of arabs muslims and christians????
oh and please,dont start with me about the promised land argument…u’ll just lose ur credibility.
i wont just abandon my comment this time..im expecting an answer.
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 10:27 pm
First of all,
do not talk about religion being a “new factor” to the conflict.
You are defining yourself as a Jew, and your state as a jewish state, which means religion was part of it from the beginning.
And it might be true that the palestinians wish to destroy your state. But
isn’t that exactly the same that your government is doing to theirs? (Do not talk to me about the non-existence of palestine as a state, the palestinians exist as a people and were trying during the last decade to create their state SIDE BY SIDE with yours. You didn’t let them!)
And you know exactly that your country is not anymore that little, weak country that needs to defend itself. You became - with US help - the strongest country in the middle east.
And you know what? It is not only about defending yourself. Did I invent this or is it true that you have, hanging in the Knesset building, the words
“From Nile to Euphrates is your land, Israel”?
And did I invent that or is it true that your country does not have any declared borders till now?
How should we understand that in your opinion? How do you expect us to not wish the destroying of a land whose future plans are to occupy at least half of the arab countrys?
Don’t WE have the right of self defense too? Or is it copyrighted by you and the USA?
Shut up, please
we heared enough of you and the like of yours
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 10:39 pm
Thank you “dozz” and “Arab, Muslim Woman” for your responses. Very interesting comments. There are certainly different perceptions on both sides and heartfelt disputes about the facts. The key is to find a way of getting over that and constucting a better future, as I’m sure you’ll agree. I’ll wait for some more comments first and then respond more fully to the specifics because my post has only been up for a couple of hours and other people may have something different to say first.
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 11:51 pm
If Israel recognised the right of Palestinians to return to where they were deported from, I think that the conflictual situation could end overnight. Israel’s citizens would have to start to live with the fact that Palestinians are part of their State, they have always been in Palestine and they shall always have that right that they did not invent, but that is secured for them through international law. This is what the Israelis will not have. They do not want to share the land they came to live on. This, and only this is the root of the problem.
If the Israelis want to continue to live in an ethnically “pure” State where there is discrimination against those who are not Jews and where the rights of the offended parties are not redressed, they will never find anything but opposition of this, no matter how many wars they wage and how much oppression they mete out. Israelis don’t realise that their “force” only makes them weaker.
I am not an Arab, and can’t speak for them, but I’ve followed this situation for decades, and the story never changes. Until there is some justice for the truly violated parties, the Arab people of Palestine and all the occupied zones surrounding Israel, any attempt to “dialogue” from Israelis (or Jews in general) turns into them being told how they are supposed to act and feel and making sure they accept the Jewish paradigm of some divine right. There is really not much of a dialogue going on, since it’s easy to say, I feel sorry for you, but hard to say, I’m sorry, forgive me, how can I help you.
Pity always is the side of the dialogue where the Jew of Conscience can show his humanity, but he never puts the status quo of his support for a racist State on the line. Arabs could probably do without the pity and would appreciate a bit of honesty and justice
July 29, 2006 في الساعة 11:55 pm
To Dozz: You say you want Israel to “vanish.” Unfortunately for people to hold the same view, Israel will not vanish voluntarily, so there will be war and horror for everyone, Jews and Arabs. That’s just logic.
____________________
To Arab, Muslim Woman: Your comments are interesting. You say that “it might be true that the palestinians wish to destroy your state.” That’s why all this is war and horror happening of course.
You say that you believe that Israel’s future plans are to occupy at least half of the arab countrys” from the “Nile to the Euphrates.” I did not know anyone in the Arab world had that impression. I am honestly surprised. I have learned something today about what you think is in our minds. I know it’s not true, but I don’t deny that you truly believe it. I hope it’s not a widely held view.
You say “do not talk to me about the non-existence of palestine as a state, the palestinians exist as a people and were trying during the last decade to create their state SIDE BY SIDE with yours. You didn’t let them!).” The problem is that Israelis believe that Palestinians would use a state as base to destroy Israel, as Dozz wants. I believe in side-by-side states too, as the majority of Israelis do, but how can Israelis be sure that the Palestinian state would not be used to attack and destroy Israel?
You say “do not talk about religion being a “new factor” to the conflict.
You are defining yourself as a Jew, and your state as a jewish state, which means religion was part of it from the beginning.” Arab, Muslim Woman, you are right. My mistake. I agree with you now on that point.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:07 am
Thank you Cutter for your comments. It is an unfortunate fact of life, I believe, that Palestinians and the Jews could not live together in peace in the same state. Nice sentiment, but it’s just not realistic. This is not Britain or American we are talking about. It’s the Middle East. Arab, Muslim Woman is right - two states are best.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:29 am
Congratulations to “Jewish Man” for starting this discussion and for remaining civil in response to the posts.
“Jewish Man”, the med to euphrates angle is widely believed. As is that the Jews were behind 9/11, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, you name it. The rest of you, this sort of thing costs you and a lot of very valid arguments you put forward, credibility.
Am I saying you should all suddenly love Israel? Far from it. But at the very least accept it’s a fact of life and isn’t just going to vanish in a puff of smoke. It’s probably a better way of fighting for justice in the region and ultimately getting what you want.
At the end of the fascinating documentary about Al Jazeera, “Control Room”, I remember that one of the AJ journalists made a comment about how everything, absolutely everything, that goes wrong in the Arab world is blamed on Israel. If the price of bread goes up in Damascus, people will probably blame Israel says the journalist.
Isn’t Israel a convenient scape goat and lighting rod for all your frustrations that conveniently gets you off the hook from looking at what’s happening in your own countries?
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:30 am
u still didnt answer any of my questions..B\
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:47 am
Nana:
My wife says that the Arabs and Jews are like two parallel rivers that will never meet. The perception gap is huge and permanent. Each side is forever trapped in its thought box.
Regarding the issue of whether Israel should exist, I don’t believe that the vast majority of Arabs/Palestinians really understand Jews or Jewish history at all, or have even tried to understand us. They do not understand why we Jews believe we must have a Jewish state and why it must be located where it is. And even if they know and understand, they don’t care. That’s life. There’s nothing anyone can do. Jews are not going to change on this subject, and I suspect that Arab/Palestinians aren’t either.
So each side fights believing it is right. I just think the people who read this website should understand that Israel and the Jews absolutely believe that they are right and that they are defending themselves. When they talk of Israel as the “aggressor,” they just don’t get it at all. This is self-defense as far as Israel is concerned.
So it’s a gloomy future for all concerned. Pity.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:52 am
[…] One post that caught my attention today was from a someone who says is a “Zionist Jew” and who declared is “looking for dialogue“: […]
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:56 am
Islam is the problem.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 1:10 am
Dozz: what did I miss? You mean you want me to discuss the basis and justification for the existence of the State of Israel? I hope not because that would mean covering a lot of historical ground. I could write a book about that!
I’m just delving to see if there’s a way forward, on the assumption that Israel’s permanent existence is accepted. But if you want Israel to “vanish,” then there’s nothing to discuss because we can never have a meeting of the minds on that. I found Arab, Muslim Woman’s comments to be more realistic in this regard. She obviously doesn’t love Israel, but it seems to me she can probably accept a two state solution.
The issue is how can Israel be sure that the Arab/Palestinians/Iranians would not use the Palestinian state as a base to attack and attempt to destroy Israel? Or are you of the opinion that a Palestinian state should be used to attack and attempt to destroy Israel, even if a peace agreement is reached?
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 1:27 am
If you are not willing to address the issue of Right of Return, what can you base dialogue on? That is the core of the entire problem. You can even have your two states, as long as you allow the Palestinians the possibility to exercise their right. Anything less is racism.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 1:41 am
Yes, Cutter, nice sentiment, but be real. Jews and Palestinians trying to share one country would end up in a sea of blood. Take a look at Iraq, or Yugoslavia. You can use the word like racism if you like, but I think that separation is crucial. Jews tried to live in European countries with others, but mostly ended up dead. Jews need their own state.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 1:47 am
Jewishman:
“My wife says that the Arabs and Jews are like two parallel rivers that will never meet. The perception gap is huge and permanent. Each side is forever trapped in its thought box.”
What saddens me is that there were once Jewish Arabs. After Isreal these people have become a rarity.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 2:08 am
what i say is, if you want dialogue, that must be brought to the discussion table. Full stop.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 2:13 am
On the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Who exactly should be allowed to “return” - the grandchildren of people who once lived there?
Around the same time many Palestinians left and in part were - wrongly - expelled, millions of people were ethnically cleansed from their homes in Europe after World War Two.
Do the grandchildren of these displaced Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians et al demand to return to their grandparents homes? No, because they were given new homes and integrated into their communitiies.
What happened after the 1948 Israel / Arab war by comparison? The refugees, and their children, and their children in turn were left to fester in refugee camps. Why? Because by denying them any kind of permanent re-settlement you keep the idea alive that Israel is just some kind of temporary aberation.
So let’s be honest and spell out that when you talk about the right of return, it’s code for the end of Israel. And the Israelis know full well that this is the case
And yes there were once Jewish Arabs. Palestinians weren’t the only ones expelled from their homes in the 1940s and 1950s.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 2:27 am
Cutter:
There is discussion. The question is where are the red lines beyond which there can be no compromise? From the Israeli point of view, there can be no compromise on the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. If hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinians can move into Israel, then there will be no Jewish state. Borders can be discussed, but not the existence of a Jewish state. Obviously, if Arabs/Palestinians can’t live with that, then there will be war and killing for many years to come.
The good news is that I think most Palestinians can accept the existence of a Jewish state. The problem is with extremists among the Palestinians and certain extremist non-Palestinians.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 2:32 am
“My wife says that the Arabs and Jews are like two parallel rivers that will never meet. The perception gap is huge and permanent. Each side is forever trapped in its thought box.”
Egypt and Jordan may have signed peace treaties, but take it as a given that the man and woman on the street despises Israel. Check out the comments on Black Iris earlier this year in response to a post about Israeli tourists. The clear implication was that your countrymen that visit Jordan should face lynch mob justice (http://www.black-iris.com/?p=309)
The exception was Lebanon. Some Lebanese thought differently - at least until a few weeks back (and btw, before there is a flood of responses with “I’m Lebanese but hate the zionist entity” the operative word here is SOME).
Sure, their Government would never voice the idea of peace, but if you read a lot of Lebanese bloggers a few months back you’ll have found that they at the very least accepted Israel as a reality that needed to be dealt with.
Check out the blogger Perpetual Refugee by example (www.perpetualrefugee.blogspot.com/). Several months ago he was meeting Israelis and was taking the first step of relating to them as people. He certainly doesn’t think that way now and the random shooting gallery approach of the IDF has succeeded in alienating one small section of Arab society that could have been won over.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 3:03 am
Nana:
You mention the “random shooting gallery approach” of the IDF. Unless we are sitting with the men who are planning the strikes, and aiming the artillery, and filing the missiles from the planes, how do we know what they are trying to hit and why? It seems to me that some assumptions are being made.
Any thoughts about the “random shooting gallery approach” of Hamas against Sderot and Hizbollah against Haifa and other Israeli cities? Any thoughts about the ballbearings loaded into the Katyushas fired from Lebanon to cause maximum injury to Israelis civilians?
People on this website are quick to condemn Israeli “aggression.” Do they see any fault in Arab/Palestinian conduct or is absolutely everything bad just Israel’s fault? Do they understand that Israel is trying to defend itself against people who want Israel to “vanish”?
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 9:54 am
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2:
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
UNGAR 194, Section 11:
Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.
Refusing to implement the Palestinians inalieanble right of return is suppporting ethnic cleansing and ethnic cleansing is a war crime.
No Palestinian, other than one totally compromised, or a quisling, will accept the notion that his/her rights are relative to anyone else’s rights.
Currently, of a 9.4 million population, there are 7.2 million refugees. “There is the reality that 97% of them [internal refugees, refugees within the occupied territories, and refugees in neighboring countries] are within 100 km of their homes, 50% within 40 km and many are within sight of their homes. The reality is, in spite of wars, raids, occupation and Israeli brutal policies, they have neither surrendered nor given up, all three generations of them “(Salman Abu Sitta).
Zionists are in no position to admonish Palestinians. Instead I admonish Zionists to heed the words of Dr. Salman Abu Sitta, Palestinian researcher to Gershon Baskin, a self-professed “friend to Palestinians:
“True friendship lies in talking to Israelis to help shake them off their collective amnesia about what they have done and are doing to the Palestinians and to advise them that their salvation lies in shedding racism fully and forever. They have to amend their ways, reverse ethnic cleansing and make reparations.
“For it is clear that the history of Jews will ultimately be marked indelibly, and above all other historical events, by what they have done in Palestine.”
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 10:49 am
JewishMan: While the wounds and the hate created by this long and bloody conflict will take a long time to heal, the Arabs have been outlining for a long time the conditions for peace with Israel. This means that Israel should withdraw from all of the West Bank and Gaza, and allow for the creation of a viable Palestinian state with control over it’s borders and resources, especially the water resources. The issue of the refugees should be solved fairly through compensation and/or allowing thier return, maybe just to the Palestinian state and not Israel proper.
While hate still exists on both sides, I think that both sides of the conflict should have learnt by now that violence will not solve the problem. Only fulfilling the requirments for peace will place us on the path for getting this issue behind us.
I would add that after the assassination of Rabin, no Israeli leader has shown true interest in achieving a real peace. A far second would Barak. However, even he still wanted to take some Palestinian land as a price for a settlement. Why? The Israelis are insisting on legalizing the illegal settlements they built on the West Bank. Why do Israelis think that “creating facts on the ground” ammounts to legitimization of theft? Another question is it worth it. The entire Arab world has offered to normalize with Israel. Are a couple dozen square kilometers worth not being able to do business with the Arab Gulf states? They have tens billions of dollars that they don’t know what to do with. The settlements are costing Israel potentially billions of dollars in business with the Arabs, as well as the continued violence and insecurity.
I always had the impression that Jews were shrewd and calculating. I don’t believe that any more.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 10:50 am
Jewishman, you are right, maybe it is time to start listening to each other instead of yelling at each other. We ought to work on both side to build some trust among us. It seems to be impossible to do so, but yet I can see that there are many Arabs and Israeli who really want peace. Most of those a still silent. Maybe we can stop our silence and raise our voices. At both sides, let’s work for peace…
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 11:13 am
Here is what I think is coming next:
Tactics, Strategy, Grand Strategy
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 11:25 am
hahlaf,
Gaza was a test case. Would withdrawal bring peace. It did not. In fact Gaza is hot and the territories are cool.
What kind of message is that?
Gone from Lebanon. UN resolutions fulfilled. Hizbollah fires rockets and crosses the border for murder and abductions.
Hong Kong did more wirh less. Are Chinese better than Arabs?
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 11:42 am
Jewish Man, the difference is that Hezbollah is (I believe, but I live in Western Europe - many on this post will disagree) a terrorist, or at least an insurgent organisation. Israel is a democratic state. The standards and norms applied to both need to be different - I wouldn’t expect Hezbollah to care about Israeli civillians.
Personally I don’t subscribe to the view that the IDF is deliberately hitting Lebanese civillians. I subscribe to the view that the IDF needed to be seen to be doing something - anything - for Israeli public opinion. But yes, I am not a military planner.
Khalaf is right, the outlines of an agreement do exist. And actually it does involve Israel keeping a few Jerusalem suburbs / settlements in exchange for other land. You’ll be aware of the Geneva accord (http://www.geneva-accord.org), where a group of Israelis and Palestinians unofficially carried on the negotiations ended from Camp David and Taba in 2000.
What they came up with is as I understand it, the absolute maximum the Israelis would ever agree to and the absolute minimum the Palestinian leadership would ever agree to. I’d be interested if you think that Israeli public opinion, in the right conditions, could ever stomach something like this.
When I was a lot younger I lived in Northern Ireland, in the 1970s. At the time a peace deal was hammered out that was scuppered by the majority Unionist / Protestant parties after a few months. Twenty five years on and the Good Friday agreement that was signed was remarkably similar to the Sunningdale agreement rejected in the 70s. I hope it doesn’t take another 25 years before these peace proposals see the light of day again.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 12:53 pm
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2:
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
UNGAR 194, Section 11:
Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.
Refusing to implement the Palestinians inalieanble right of return is suppporting ethnic cleansing and ethnic cleansing is a war crime.
No Palestinian, other than one totally compromised, or a quisling, will accept the notion that his/her rights are relative to anyone else’s rights.
Currently, of a 9.4 million population, there are 7.2 million refugees. “There is the reality that 97% of them [internal refugees, refugees within the occupied territories, and refugees in neighboring countries] are within 100 km of their homes, 50% within 40 km and many are within sight of their homes. The reality is, in spite of wars, raids, occupation and Israeli brutal policies, they have neither surrendered nor given up, all three generations of them “(Salman Abu Sitta).
Zionists are in no position to admonish Palestinians. Instead I admonish Zionists to heed the words of Dr. Salman Abu Sitta, Palestinian researcher to Gershon Baskin, a self-professed “friend to Palestinians:
“True friendship lies in talking to Israelis to help shake them off their collective amnesia about what they have done and are doing to the Palestinians and to advise them that their salvation lies in shedding racism fully and forever. They have to amend their ways, reverse ethnic cleansing and make reparations.
“For it is clear that the history of Jews will ultimately be marked indelibly, and above all other historical events, by what they have done in Palestine.”
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 1:03 pm
M. Simon: You know better than to claim that Gaza was freed. The fact is that Gaza is a large prison with no economic opportunities (comparason with Hong Kong is silly; they have a port, for Gods sake). What do you think that people will accept that and pretend that they are free?
As for Lebanon, many issues as still hanging, including the Shebaa farms and the prisinors. Israel has not signed a treaty with Lebanon, as I recall.
Peace is something that is mutually agreed upon. To pretend that you can decide the conditions for peace through one sided decisions is self-dilusional, as you should have discovered by now.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 4:09 pm
If the problem of Palestinians returning who were cast out from ‘48 onwards seems like a huge problem, then Israelis should stop with the claims of hundreds of generations. It seems reasonable to apply the same standards. If it is not, then why would it be so vital to have a “Jewish State” if it is obviously constructed on a violation of human rights. It amazes me that the incredible injustice of this seems to escape most Israeli supporters, and most don’t even pose the question.
Perhaps not many refugees would return, but they should be given the opportunity. There are imporant studies (Salman Abu Sitta) that show that it is feasible, and it may be the only way to arrive at peace.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 6:09 pm
I was very much in favor of resolving the situation based on the Clinton/Barak/Arafat/Taba negotiations. Times have changed and it is not possible for the two sides to even discuss that now, but I believe the time will come again in the future when it will be possible. I believe that it is a blueprint for the future.
Incidentally, for anyone not familiar with the Taba negotiations, here is a good link.
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/moratinos.html
The Observer says: “I can see that there are many Arabs and Israeli who really want peace.” The problem is that not everyone wants peace. There are Israelis who want to settle deep into the West Bank and not give up an inch (“extreme settlers”), and there are rejectionists who want to eliminate Israel completely. These are powerful forces. However, the settlers can be brought into line as they were in Gaza. But the rejectionists I’m afraid cannot. They are hell bent on destroying Israel and removing Jews from the Middle East. That’s the problem. They would ignore a Taba-type settlement and carry on bombing and killing. How do you get those people to stop? That’s the problem. I don’t think you can.
I would have liked to have seen Mahmoud Abbas hold the referendum on Israel’s existence. That would have been very helpful. Yes, it was based on 1967 borders which are a non-starter (a referendum based on Taba would be better!), but the idea of Israel’s existence being accepted by the people in the West Bank and Gaza is important. If Hamas would have accepted the referendum result while leaving the 1967 borders issue open for negotiation, given up violence permanently, proposed peace negotiations, and imposed order and good government in Gaza and the West Bank, then we might not be in the mess that we are in today. If, if, if.
Henry Kissinger once said that the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I don’t think that the Israelis have been acting that smart either.
One more thing. There are lots of one-sided e-mails being sent by Jews to Jews, and by Arabs to Arabs. But not to each other. There are lots of one-sided websites on each side. But they are not being read by the other side. The internet and e-mail are divisive as they are being used today. Shame, because the internet would be best used to bring people together. Any ideas?
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 8:42 pm
The Powers that B
It’s really about the balance of power. Israelis cannot and will not rest until the Arab world is enslaved to them, serving their intersts… just as the establishment-US is and does now.
Israel CAN dictate their views on the world through their proxy, the US, a populous hynotized by a contorted “Christian faith” that seeks a speedy demise to humanity, or an end to history through the Middle East (prophecies and all that jazz).
So, yes, Israelis can get away with their crimes against defenseless civilians (two thirds children in the last Qana massacre which clocked 57 lives so far) because they simply command the power to do so. So again, when power talks bullshit walks—Sam’s world. The victims are almost too many to count: American Indians, Africans, Vietnamese, South Americans (several countries), Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest of the Arab world.
Israel in fact has been massacaring defenseless civilians since this rogue state sought a foothold in Palestine using US-issued weapons, including nukes. Now the equation could change… and this is interesting becuase it seems that God has finally entered the formula.
Of course more bloodshed will follow (but this time on both sides) and surprisingly, it seems there’s no way out of this now—that was one thing Olmert was spot on, saying it after recent bombing of Qana. Don’t kid yourselves people and don’t let fear grab your true desires: diplomacy shifted to armamency and had to as far as many are concerned because it just has gotten to this (meaningless words that say a lot in fact). It doesn’t matter how far Arab leaders bend over and they’re willing to go 180 degrees. But now Israel has stopped being interested in this… they’ve become thirsty, as are the Americans, for more blood in the Middle East and better now, while Arabs are weak (except for HA). Remember also that Bush sees a chance for ending his presidency with a bang, especially knowing how difficult it’ll be for neo conservatives to secure the House again.
Just watch how political rhetoric will change as the Israeli army continues to be humiliated by HA. Just watch how savage Israelis and the US will become as they seek the total solution for the Muslim Arab world. The last thing they will accept is discussing the future with Arabs as equals, and even this sounds now as an optimistic supposition. They want a totally subdued humiliated Arab masses or nothing at all. Qana was a starter for the main course of this two headed monster.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 9:55 pm
Dialogue about what exactly?? Israel has gone out of its way to make sure that no one in the region accepts it. you live by the sword then you die by the sword. You will NEVER get peace as your definition of it is for the Arabs to remain in refugee camps, for you to have the freedom to bomb and kill at will whom ever you feel like. The Arab World will not submit to your diktats, today, tomorrow, in 300 years, 500 year you will either be assimilated or be driven back to where you came from just as many invaders came to the middle east you will eventually be kicked out.
Dialogue…. my foot.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 10:12 pm
If you seek the truth about Zionism, there is no better place to find it but on the shockingly-humanitarian sites of those Jews: Israel Shamir, Noam Chomsky and rare others… they do not fear the truth and are independent thinkers and ultimately more caring about Jews than the mightiest of Israelis in their government posts and blood stained histories… why because they see what horror the future stores for Israel’s arrogance….
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Friends.htm
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=260
http://www.chomsky.info/
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 10:48 pm
bla bla bla… firepower or no power. End of dialogue. We need war to bring about a smaller world. That’s all. So the excuses are now being presented for a nuclear holocuast… this will do about 3 billion people in and earth will be lighter, brighter and cleaner.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 11:00 pm
JewishMan “Regarding the issue of whether Israel should exist, I don’t believe that the vast majority of Arabs/Palestinians really understand Jews or Jewish history at all, or have even tried to understand us. They do not understand why we Jews believe we must have a Jewish state and why it must be located where it is. And even if they know and understand, they don’t care. That’s life. There’s nothing anyone can do. Jews are not going to change on this subject, and I suspect that Arab/Palestinians aren’t either.”
So how come you expect us Arabs and Muslims to just trust you that we will never understand your religion, when I can be saying the same thing to you. Israelis have failed to understand Muslims and Muslims history. You come here asking for dialogue then you state that “why we Jews believe we must have a Jewish state and why it must be located where it is” and you wonder how we can solve the ME crisis? Don’t you see the irony in your words? You basically ended the discussion with this statement.
What’s more to talk about!
You got your mind set and you expect everyone to bend, twist, and break around it. You are asking us to compromise when you just told us that “this is it” and no chance of any compromise? Let’s be logical, otherwise this is going to be just one of the millions of Jewish-Muslims dialogues we had so far and have been a waste of time.
So if we should not waste our time, tell me from now the true intentions of you dialogue:-
1-Is it for you to clear all the misconceptions we have about Israelis mind and view of the crisis? If so, then just write an article and no need for debate.
2-Is it for the hope that you can convince us to see things your way? Then you will be at fault here by giving us the same right to only try to convince you our way and not listen to anything you say.
3-Or is it in the hopes that you might learn something new from us that could drastically alter your view of your own country and its policies? Thus also placing us under a moral responsibility to consider things that will alter our thoughts on our Israeli policy?
If your answer was 1 or 2 then I would rather leave. Excuse my caution as we all know it, this debate is getting pretty old and we have to be careful not to fall by the same errors as everyone did before.
July 30, 2006 في الساعة 11:19 pm
Hasan:
My intention in starting the dialog was to try to correct the impression that Israel is waging a war of aggression. From Israel’s point of view, Israel is defending itself.
I also asked in my original post: “If Israel believed, truly believed, that the Arabs and Palestinians no longer desired to destroy Israel and would never again try to destroy or attack Israel, wonderful things would happen. Do any of you see that?”
I got responses to my post, but not really a direct answer to that particular question.
I have learned some things from the dialog.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 12:31 am
So you chose #2, you are trying to convince us to see things your way.
Then you my friend, are wasting our time, and we are wasting yours.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 9:04 am
Jewishman:
“They would ignore a Taba-type settlement and carry on bombing and killing. How do you get those people to stop? That’s the problem. I don’t think you can.”
I think that we can, if we work on both sides. Seeing massacre such as Qana and daily killings in the west bank and Gaza don’t help us at all. It only fuels people anger and hatred towards Israel.
You can have a better part from your side, because our governments are peaceful ones. They are not attacking Israel, the ones who are doing the bombing are resistance. You can address them without punishing a whole nation. Being a democratic country as you claim, you can push your government to do the right things.
It is a cycle of violence. If you help your goverment to abide from using extreme violence againts civilians, then you won’t create more hatred. Let those people in Gaza and West Bank to live a decent life, then you’ll have your peace and security.
What we need is control extremist from both sides.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 9:27 am
Jewish party:
I can understand how you need a country to call your own, especially after the atrocities you have encountered in europe.
i can understand that you have the perception that Palestine should be your Zion. Since supposedly you have that in your religion that it is your “Promised Land”.
But how can you excuse what you are doing to innocent people by reminding the world what you encountered in Europe. Are the Arabs to blame for what the Nazis did to your people. And do you accept the same atrocites to happen to any other people?
From what you said, not being able to trust a peaceful Palestinian state. And if this is what the Israeli government believes, which it probably does, then there will never be peace in the region. Jews and Arabs alike know this. Many Jews are against the Israeli state because of this.
Why would Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, Christians let go of their home land?
Palestine is a holy land for most religions, why do we have to fight for it?
Why can’t the Jews accept Palestine for what it is and what it always was? And just live with the Muslims and Christians in peace? As we all did very recently, before WW2?
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 10:45 am
to Jewishman: What would you do if the U.N. tell you tomorrow that Israil is going to vanish and they will create an Arab country at its place? You will say no and fight for your land. That’s what Palestinian are doing. And you are saying that the want to destroy Israil. No I don’t agree at all. Tare fighting for their land; they want to get it back. Many people own a piece of land and they don’t ave the right to go and build a house there. Why? Of Course because if Isaril allows that it will open a door for Arabs and they will come and form a majority in the Zionist country. Therefore, they want for sure destroy the Isarily state but not because they like destroying but because they want their land.
You have a wrong view: you are thinking as a jew without trying to really understand the other part. You said that Palestinians want to destroy Isaril because for you Israil has the right to exist (of course it’s written in Torah, but it’s also written in Coran that jew and christian people have to become muslim, as it’s said in the Bible that Jesus came to guide jew people and therefore they have to believe in christianism). Therefore, you are talking about destroying. But Palestinians want their land and of course the result is that Israil will vanish, but you have to undestand that if you create Israil in the United States, Palestinians won’t go there to destroy it: to destroy is a word used by politics (specially Georges bush) and media to handle people.
You said “In recent years we have the new factor of religion. Israel is on “Islamic” land. I am old enough to remember when religion was not a factor as it is today.” but are you old enoguh to remember that jew required the creation of Israil because it’s written in the Torah.
Tell me, you want palestinians to accept Israil and after they can create their country. Therefore you want them to give Israil a part of their lands, lands that they had in their family for many generations. But my question is: are you ready to do the same? Are you ready to share?
Let me explain what I mean: I think the big problem is Jerusalem. There is 3 religions having holly places there. So if it’s so difficult for Arabs and Jews to share this town let’s create two countries: Israil and Palestine with Jerusalem in the middle and under control of United Nations. But I think you won’t agree because you’re not really trying to make dialog and find a good solution for both palestinians and jews, you are just trying to convince people that Israil has the right to attack Gaza and Lebanon; you want to convince people that Israil is not wrong and Israil is the victim. Don’t talk about dialog if you are not really trying to undestand people.
Finally, let me just tell you something: I’m not muslim, I’m a french Jew but I tried all my life to read all what I find about those three religions because I think it’s the best way to understand the others, and for me Israil is an aberation.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 3:07 pm
posted on behalf of a friend who could not login somehow.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2:
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
UNGAR 194, Section 11:
Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.
Refusing to implement the Palestinians inalieanble right of return is suppporting ethnic cleansing and ethnic cleansing is a war crime.
No Palestinian, other than one totally compromised, or a quisling, will accept the notion that his/her rights are relative to anyone else’s rights.
Currently, of a 9.4 million population, there are 7.2 million refugees. “There is the reality that 97% of them [internal refugees, refugees within the occupied territories, and refugees in neighboring countries] are within 100 km of their homes, 50% within 40 km and many are within sight of their homes. The reality is, in spite of wars, raids, occupation and Israeli brutal policies, they have neither surrendered nor given up, all three generations of them “(Salman Abu Sitta).
Zionists are in no position to admonish Palestinians. Instead I admonish Zionists to heed the words of Dr. Salman Abu Sitta, Palestinian researcher to Gershon Baskin, a self-professed “friend to Palestinians:
“True friendship lies in talking to Israelis to help shake them off their collective amnesia about what they have done and are doing to the Palestinians and to advise them that their salvation lies in shedding racism fully and forever. They have to amend their ways, reverse ethnic cleansing and make reparations.
“For it is clear that the history of Jews will ultimately be marked indelibly, and above all other historical events, by what they have done in Palestine.”
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 6:10 pm
I am learning a lot from this dialog. I have been a close observer of the Middle East since the 1960s. I am from a Middle Eastern background. I thought I knew more than I did. This is what I have learned so far.
1. Some Arabs/Moslems believe that Israel has ambitions or plans to imperialize/colonize a huge chunk of the Arab world from the Nile to the Euphrates. I am told this is a widespread belief. This is a real surprise. Actually, it’s mindblowing! It’s absolutely untrue, I assure you.
2. Many or most Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians will never accept Israel’s legitimacy or even existence. I knew that, but I had hoped to hear something else. I didn’t.
3. I conclude that Olmert’s convergence plan, which I strongly supported, is forever dead and buried. I have changed my mind. I no longer support it and I doubt that there are many Israelis who now support it. (Firing Qassams from Gaza and using Gaza as a staging ground to attack Israel was a major strategic error.) I cannot see Israel ever pulling out of any of the West Bank now because Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians will never accept Israel’s legitimacy and will always carry on fighting and jihading. Israel has to occupy the entire West Bank for its security. (Not because of a claim to all of the land, but because of security.) The result will be misery for Israel, but much much greater misery for people in the West Bank and the refugees, both regrettable. It’s terrible news for everyone.
4. There are those of you who believe that Israel and the Jews got along just fine before 1948. That’s not what I have read in the history books and I am surprised to hear that anyone actually believes it. Some got along before 1948 but there was plenty of bloodshed too. I wonder whether Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians have been told that everything was idyllic before 1948 by people promoting a “one-state” solution.
5. Some of you believe that I don’t understand your point of view and your mental framework on this issue, but I do. I also have found that many of you who have responded understand my point of view - more than I expected. But understanding each other’s point of view will achieve nothing if Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians will not accept Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. It will just be more guns and bombs forever.
6. This has been a depressing dialog. I have no hope left for the future.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 9:32 pm
Jewishman, you have learnt what your definition of Dialogue means. Either you convince everyone that the Jewish point of view is correct and others have to get there, or it’s pointless. Don’t worry, you are not in the minority. At least you didn’t get violent or insulting. There can’t be any dialogue if the points of discussion are ruled out a priori by those in your camp, and this is the story from day one, and it will always be this way. Palestinians are patient and wait for the world to understand what is already very clear. Time will be kind to them and their rights will one day be recognised. They are making sacrifices for this, and they realise that many more people in the world are realising they are in the right.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 9:36 pm
we can talk forever about this problem, it wont finish. Why? because for you we can’t discuss about Isail’s existence as a jewish state and for Arabs it’s THE problem. You feel that it’s your right to have a jewish state, Arabs are not denying that, they are just saying not in Palestine, not in their land.
One question: If the Arabs say yes we are ready to accept Israil and share our land, will we (jew) do the same? I’m ready to say take all your land but are you ready to say we will give you a part of it? I don’t think so. If as I told you before (and you didn’t answer, I think it’s not because you didn’t read what I wrote but because you don’t want to answer) they tell us ” let’s share this land but Jerusalem will be under controll of United Nations so that everyone can go there and pray no matter what religion he’s paracticing” are you ready to approve this plan? Of course NO. You are not trying to find a solution which in long terms will be good for both sides. You are just trying to make your country safe. I’m gonna teach you something you can not make peace if you don’t give Arabs something. Giving them a piece of land is not so important, you have to give them a symbol : JERUSALEM. Tell them that they can go and pray there whenever they want. I hope and I believe that this solution will be approved by every Arabic country. But are you ready to accept? OF COURSE NO because you are not searching for peace but safety.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 9:54 pm
There will be decades of occupation and misery ahead because Arab/Moslem/Palestinians will not accept Israel’s right to exist. There is no way out. I supported the Olmert convergence plan but no longer. After seeing what happened after the Gaza withdrawal and what has happened in south Lebanon, and reading the responses to my post, I now firmly believe Israel should keep every inch of the West Bank on a permanent basis. It’s not a religious claim to the land. It’s for security. A rotten situation. There’s nothing left to talk about. Very sad.
July 31, 2006 في الساعة 10:23 pm
Jewishman. You have to undestand something Arabs are very proud. If you read some history about Arabs you will find that if somebody asked if he can settle his family in their land, they will for sure agree (that’s what they used to do in the past and I think that Arabs can still do it) because it means that he respected their rights. We , jew , came to their land and took a part ( and what a part, a big one) of it without asking and we did it by force. In that case, they will fight forever for their rights.
If you really wanted to settle a dialog, the first thing to do is not to blame Arabs but to say : what can we do for you? It’s like when you try to nagociate for something, your first question is what is your price (how much do you want me to pay? What can I do for you?). The vendor will give you a price, you will for sure say no and he will ask for your price (What can you do for me?). You have to change the way you think (give me peace, gice me safety and then I’ll see what I can do for you). If you start a dialog blaming people they will for sure try to answer and try to blame you too, and it wont finish.
And please for me you are not answering my question when you say “There will be decades of occupation and misery ahead because Arab/Moslem/Palestinians will not accept Israel’s right to exist. There is no way out.” I wrote a yes or no question but I’m not seeing neither no nor yes. All what I can unserstand is that you are judging something that didn’t happen yet. You can not compare whith what happened in Gaza, because I told you have to give them a symbol, therefore it means that you respected them and that you are considering their point of view. There is a law, in french it’s “présomption d’innocence” in english I think something like (excuse but I don’t know hwo to translate it) “innocence presumption” and it means that you can not judge something that didn’t happen yet, I mean if someone was killed and two days before I told him “I’m gonna kill you” you can not judge me if you don’t have any proof (like my digital prints), you can not judge me just because I said I’m gonna kill him, it’s the same for Palestinians; you can not judge them just because they did’nt accept Olmert’s plan. You didn’t even ask if they would accept the plan I was talking about and you are judging them, come on is this a dialog!
Please when you’ll try to answer to this message, answer the yes or no question before because I’m sur I’m not the only one who is waiting for your answer.
Thanks.
August 1, 2006 في الساعة 1:11 am
One thing you said was very true: everyone is shouting and no one is listening. This will go nowhere if we proceed as is.
IMHO, while I don’t view the elimination of the state of Israel from the map as an option, one has to admit that the establishment of this state is the root of the problem. Didn’t anyone think that this was going be problematic? Did they expect the Palestinians to roll over and concede? For God’s sake, they’re humans who have been kicked out of their homes and off their lands in very recent history.
Returning lands to any one group of people at any time is hardly feasible without 2 nations battling it out. Imagine if an international body came into Israel tomorrow and told you, “Listen, you’re all gonna have to go. This isn’t working out. We’ll not be sending you anywhere in particular. Here are some tents. Sort yourselves out…oh, and…you’re not a recognised state. No passports for you!” Shit, I heard Mexico called and wants the Southwest corner of the US back. While we’re doing that, the indigenous populations of North America (who occupied this land in the much more recent history than Jews occupied Israel) would like to move their various tribes back to their original locations. It was never a practical idea. I think the question you want to ask is not, “Why the Arabs are so hostile?” it’s really “Why have the Arabs remained so hostile for so long?” I don’t think anyone expect the Palestinians to endure this fight for as long as they have.
I must borrow from another blogger who posted a fabulous article by an Israeli writer. http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article1197235.ece
I found it refreshing. While I am not Arab or Muslim, I have spent a significant amount of time in the Middle East, and call many Arabs (Muslim and otherwise) my friends. I have received countless emails which include slideshows of dead Lebanese civilians. I’ve also recieved forwarded articles from friends in the Middle East that are clearly marked as ‘parodies’, yet those articles are represented as ‘truths’. I don’t view these emails as constructive. They incite anger, and sometimes violence. We need to be talking and sharing the writings of people who approach this topic intellectually.
Rabbi David Weiss was on MSNBC recently talking to one of the far-right shmucks they call ‘journalists’. His ideas don’t exactly align themselves with the Israeli government, nor perhaps the Israeli majority or many Jews worldwide.
Israle won’t go away. That’s the reality Arab must face, but we should be able to look back on both sides and admit where we collectively went wrong and learn from it. More dialogue, less violence.
August 1, 2006 في الساعة 5:20 am
It is a dangerous fantasy to believe that Jews and Arabs can live together under a one-state “solution.” It won’t work. Regarding the pre-1948 situation, we did not get along at all. See for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
Anyway, I and probably 99% of Jews would not be interested even if it did work. We want a Jewish state, we need a Jewish state, and we have a Jewish state. Arabs and Moslems have Arab and Muslim states. The Islamic Republic of Iran for example. Why are they not “racist?”
How about Saudi Arabia’s policy about not granting tourist visas to Jews? Any “racism” there?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3493448.stm
Eckmul: My answer to you is the Taba negotations. See http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/moratinos.html
But I am now less inclined to trust a Palestinian state not to attack Israel so Taba does not look so good anymore.
Cairogal: You say “Israel won’t go away. That’s the reality Arab must face, but we should be able to look back on both sides and admit where we collectively went wrong and learn from it. More dialogue, less violence.” I agree but the Arabs won’t face that reality.
One more thing. All this talk about the European Holocaust misses an important point. Many Arab countries threw the Jews out of their countries, including my wife and her family in the mid 1960s. In 1948, nearly 900,000 Jews - indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa - lived in the Arab States. Today, 99% of these indigenous Jewish communities no longer exist. So it’s not just Arabs having to pay for a European issue.
Incidentally, I suspect I am talking mostly to non-Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians in this dialog. I would like to see more responses from Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians.
August 1, 2006 في الساعة 9:25 am
Jewishman: For your comment on “Anyway, I and probably 99% of Jews would not be interested even if it did work. We want a Jewish state, we need a Jewish state, and we have a Jewish state.”
or “Arabs and Moslems have Arab and Muslim states”
Why do we need Islamic or Jewish or Christian countries? In most Arab countries there is a diversity of religions. And living in PEACE and HARMONY. You say that the Arab muslims, jews and christians did not live in peace and harmony before WW2, no matter what happened then would never have been as bad as it is today.
Having bloodshed as a daily routine?
Not knowing if you’d wake up in the morning from the air raids in the middle of the night?
Not knowing when your house will be raided by the army, killing your whole family, for something you may or may have not done.
Your 60 year old mother is sent to jail without a trial. Without proof of misconduct?
Your 10 year old brother also going to prison, being tortured.
Israel, the only country having torture as the interrogation procedure.
What life is that to live?
Why do the Palestinians have to justify the right to live in their own homes?
Why do they have to fight to live in their own homes?
August 1, 2006 في الساعة 11:40 am
Jewishman:
“It is a dangerous fantasy to believe that Jews and Arabs can live together ”
No it is not.
Jews has lived peacfully among Arabs for ages. Arabs even treated them better than other nations did. You can check the Jews history, how many lived in Iraq, Syrai, Yemen, Maghreb, and Palestine ..etc last century?
Even now in Israel, while Arabs who stayed after 1948 as Israeli citizens which we call Arab 48 live as a 2nd class citizens, still they do live peacfully among the Jews. Racism is everywhere, but it doesn’t have to go out of hand like a daily bloodshed. People can learn to live togather no matter how different their ideologies can be.
An Arabic friend of mine came from Israel a while ago. He said that he has many Jewish friends. In social level, they don’t feel racism. They all blend togather and treat each other as humans.
It is just us who let extremist rule us. It is us who let fear guide us. After all we are both human beings. We live in 2006. We have good brains. We can use it smartly to live togather. No one would win with this war. No one. Let us do the right thing and raise our voices for peace. We had enough misery and saddness. Why don’t we make this region a better place for all?
August 1, 2006 في الساعة 5:17 pm
Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollasays that the Jews “invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities”. He also says: “Anyone who reads the Koran . . . sees what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history . . . Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer.”
That’s not exactly encouraging, is it?
It is written in the Koran: “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends to one another.”
How may killed in Iraq today, Moslem versus Moslem?
August 1, 2006 في الساعة 7:19 pm
Hi
Jewishman: if you read all the messages that you wrote you will see that what you are doing is just justifying your point of view.
The observer told you that Jew and Arabs used to live in the same area for a long time and they didn’t face problems as they are doign now. Your answer is “it’s said in the Koran that you have to kill us, and Nasrallah is saying the same thing”. Koran was written a long time ago, so why didn’t Arabs kill Jew before. You are still doing the same mistake “judging something that didn’t happen yet”. If I was hearing you, I would say Georges Bush was one of your teachers “yes it’s a preventive attack, if we don’t do it they will attack us in the future”.
You said “Eckmul: My answer to you is the Taba negotations.”
Please I don’t want to read a website. You said you want a dialog, so give us your point of view, your answer and tell us to read someone else. You have to write yes “I’m ready” or “no I’m not ready”, that’s all, I’m not telling you that you have to write a newspaper; I feel like if you were escaping from my question. Thanks.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 2:07 am
I feel a deep need to express remorse to all you aggrieved Arabs here…
I am truly sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Arabs.
I am sorry that a great number of Arabs have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.
I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.
I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US and for the Jews in their religious schools.
I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and highjacked the Palestinian “cause.”
I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.
I am sorry the Arabs killed thousand of dissidents dunping them in mass graves like garbage.
I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group, and continue to do so, even today.
Perhaps the Palestinians have a point, and so to set the record straight, I do hereby denounce the following in the name of the Jewish people:
1. All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever acted against Arabs.
2. All Arab buses blown up by Jews.
3. All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques and restaurants destroyed by Jewish terrorists.
4. All airplanes hijacked by Jews since 1903.
5. All Ramadan feasts targeted by Jewish bombs.
6. All Arabs lynched in Israeli cities; all Arab Olympic athletes murdered by Jews; all Arab embassies bombed by Jews.
7. All mosques, cemeteries and religious schools fire bombed or desecrated by Jews in North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, England or any other country.
8. The destruction of American military, governmental and civilian institutions in Kenya, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - >> along with the murder of U.S.Marines and diplomatic personnel.
9. All Jewish school books which claim that Arabs poison wells, use Christian blood to bake pita, control world finance, and murdered Jesus; or that Arab elders meet secretly to plot a world takeover.
10. And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11th and danced in the streets to celebrate the act. That was REALLY inexcuseable, and for this I am deeply sorry.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 3:27 am
Eckmul, I already said that there was no point in this dialogue after reading Jewishman’s first sentence. He ended the dialogue before it started. His intentions were paranet from the beginning. (scroll up for me post.)
Jewishman,
Eckmul’s post should be enough with nothing added to portray our view.
Incase you didn’t understand, I will simplify the matter.
How would you feel if someone occupied your house then offered you the garage?? And what would you do?
”Anyway, I and probably 99% of Jews would not be interested even if it did work. We want a Jewish state, we need a Jewish state, and we have a Jewish state. Arabs and Moslems have Arab and Muslim states. The Islamic Republic of Iran for example. Why are they not “racist?””
What does Arab and Muslim states have to do with this!!!! This is about Palestine!! Not Arabs or Muslims! So what about Christian Palestinians??? They also go to Arab and Muslims States????!! Why don’t you go to Arab and Muslims states too? Go to Iran.
Its PALESTINIANS that is the issue here.
”Regarding the pre-1948 situation, we did not get along at all. See for example:”
Oh dear…. Palestinians and Jews did not pop up in Palestine just a few years before 1948. The violence you are referring to (from the so credible “anyone can edit” encyclopedia) was not the beginning but an escalation. Did you read the King David Hotel? How Jews blew it up to kill the British to kick them out of Palestine?
What about all the massacres against Palestinian villages prior to 1948? The violence started when thousands of Jews started to immigrate to Palestine and were ceasing land purchased from the British mandate who happened to be employing Jews to look after the Palestinian lands. The violence was an escalation to the unrest once the local population realized that their own land is being sold by Jewish employees to Jews.
There were a lot of Jews in Morocco, Egypt, and Iraq and it was fine until after 1948 when Israeli agents started to bomb Jewish institutions and Synagogues in Arab countries to blame it on Arabs to encourage Arab Jews to immigrate to Israel – Look up the Lavon Affair and Eli Cohen.
Apparently, there is a lot of history that you are not considering, or even aware of. All your basis of your opinions lack historical context.
” How about Saudi Arabia’s policy about not granting tourist visas to Jews? Any “racism” there?” How about Israel’s policy about not granting millions of Palestinians the right to go home!!! Any Racism!? What about me having to submit to an Anal search if I wanted to visit Jerusalem from Jordan.
Cairogal: You say “Israel won’t go away. That’s the reality Arab must face, but we should be able to look back on both sides and admit where we collectively went wrong and learn from it. More dialogue, less violence.” I agree but the Israelis won’t face that reality.
” Many Arab countries threw the Jews out of their countries, including my wife and her family in the mid 1960s.” Yeah thanks to your countries Agents!! Read history.
” In 1948, nearly 900,000 Jews - indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa - lived in the Arab States.” So you admit that Jews coexisted normally with the Muslim/Christian population with no problem prior to 1948. You contradict your self.
The reason they lived together because those Jews didn’t try to steal anyone’s land. Jews also lived peacefully with Palestinians until they started stealing their land. Do you see the pattern? You don’t steal and you get peace. Steal and you get war.
” Incidentally, I suspect I am talking mostly to non-Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians in this dialog. I would like to see more responses from Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians.” You are a piece of work. Just because you are getting reason and logic from us it must mean we are not Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians? Why the racism? I am an Arab Muslim who grew up in Jordan. Or were you waiting for anti-Semitism for you to believe that we are Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians? Surprise surprise, we are not the hating ignorant Arabs you expected who will “cut off your ear if we don’t like your face!” ~ Disney Aladdin song.
Eckmul, Jeruslem is not the only solution. Israel would like the world to believe that Jeruslem is still the Issue, but in reality it’s not even close. The real issue is the daily humiliation, imprisonment, killing, and starvation of Palestinians and being kicked out of their homes to build settlements deemed illegal by the UN. The Palestinians are living under permanent blockade from land, air, and sea. There is no economy, no jobs, no hope. Infrastructure gets destroyed as soon as it gets built. Even a foot ball stadium was built to stop the Palestinians from qualifying to world cup. In the 1st intifiada, they aired hard core porn on the airwaves to pollute Palestinian homes.
The issue here is a systematic rape and annihilation of humans, their culture and their history as a people. Palestinians have been ready for a long time to compromise, they know that it is impossible to expect Israel to just pack and leave. They are sick of being treated as 3rd class citizens in their own land. AS long as this is not changed, nothing will, not even all the land of Palestine.
Either way, one thing the west fails to understand about Arabs, as y ou mentioned, we are very proud and jealous people. Death is not the worst that can happen. Humiliation and loosing ones dignity is worse than anything on this world. We cannot live with our heads down, to us it is hell on earth.
That’s why we will never give up. We are known to be patient people. Right is on our side. It’s only a matter of time before their crimes turn against them.
This is getting too long. I will stop now.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 3:32 am
correction - “Even a foot ball stadium was BOMBED to stop the Palestinians from qualifying to world cup.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 3:46 am
Hasan:
Thank you for continuing to participate in the dialog. Your remarks are not too long. They are very interesting.
It’s fascinating that you have the idea that Israeli agents bombed synagogues and Jewish institutions in Arab countries. I’ve never heard that before. Yet another complete surprise for me about what is believed in the Arab world. Have you any basis for your assertion such as websites I could look at? I’m familiar with the Lavon Affair and Eli Cohen and as far I know they have nothing to do with any Israeli agents bombing synagogues and Jewish institutions.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 7:19 am
I managed to live for 50 years before I was afforded the opportunity of watching a man being decapitate on a live video.
It took your enlightened culture to bring that to my experience. And the further spectacle of what passes for your intelligentsia going on the air to defend these atrocious acts.
It is beyond disgusting.
Thank you for showing to the world the depths of bestial behavior, savagery and hypocrisy that humans can still sink to, even in the 21st century.
You are a small people. A silly people. Petty, barbarous, and cruel.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 8:39 am
Jewishman,
You phrased something from the Koran. What about the Torah? How many versus are there to warn the Jews of dealing of other nations? Not just Arabs, anyone on earth who hasn’t born to a Jewish mother. Anyone who isn’t chosen by your God, right?
Hassan Nasrallah can shout as much as he wants, other extremist leaders can do the same. Religious fanatics can follow them. What we need is to join forces to push sane normal people to raise their voices. Normal people were able to live togather for ages no matter what religion they follow. Humanity sense wins in the streets when people live near each other.
We can’t keep on de-humanize each other. Let us try to stop this bloodshed. Maybe try to forget our past, and start building our future. We can if we want.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 9:45 am
The Arabs’ repeated defeat at the hands of Israel is for them both embarrassing and maddening. The Imams blame this shame upon the departure from true Islam by the masses of Muslims. They are whipping up a worldwide revival of fundamentalist Islam as the way to regain Allah’s blessing and thereby defeat Israel.
There is a law in Islam that once Muslims have possessed a territory in their conquest of the world (as commanded by Allah through his prophet Muhammad), that land can never be relinquished. Islam cannot tolerate having territory which it once controlled regain its independence. Nor can non-Muslims reign over Muslims. Having taken Jerusalem in 641, Muslims controlled all of what had once been Israel for centuries. The Turkish Ottoman Empire held the entire Middle East for 400 years until 1917. It is therefore an unacceptable reversal of Islamic history for Jews now to be in control of any of their Promised Land. Thus, as soon as the UN partitioned “Palestine” in 1947, the Arabs rioted in protest.
So long as Israel retains autonomy over one square yard of land in the Middle East, it is an affront to Islam and declares to the world that Islam is a false religion, Allah a false god, Muhammad a false prophet, and the Qur’an a false revelation. This is the issue–and all the talk of “peace” without recognizing and changing this teaching of Islam is both a fool’s dream and a fraud.
August 2, 2006 في الساعة 1:21 pm
to ugly jewish american: don’t feel sorry, I think that Arabs don’t need you (you are jew and american, it can’t be worst, oh sorry it can: if you are living in Israil). You are expressing remorse for things that you didn’t analyse. Did you ask your self why Arabs bombed embassies, why they killed Americans? Of course NO, you just approved your president’s point of view. Most American people are like a herd and Georges bush is the dog: they are following him, he guides them. Did you try to read some books about Arabs (I mean books written for example by Arab people not American) to understand their point of view, to understand why they feel that Amerca is against them. Your country is telling the world that they have to open their markets, so stop giving susidies, a lot of people in Africa are losing their job and diying just because you are giving subsidies; try to read articles about African countries you will find that a lot of your companies are implemented there, they are renting a huge land for 20 cents; is it normal for you? I’m gonna help you a little: try o find informations about condoms business and cotton. You are using and manipulating presidents in Africa just to let your business grow up. Here you will find the right definition of democracy in the American thinking way: a democratic country is a country where American companies can do business and deal no matter if people are dieing there. Don’t feel sorry, you have to feel guilty because America and Israil created TERRORISM, they created it just by ignoring other peoples and considering only their own interest. You have to know something: when Israil kills one man from hezbollah, ten mens (his friends or from his family) will want to join hezbollah; so are you killing hezbollah or empowering it. You have to undestand that terrorism is also a way for peoples to get the other’s interest, after they hitted the trade center America woke up and looked at Afghanistan. Why do you have to wait for people to wake you up to look at their misery?
Hassan, thank you very much because you said everything that I wanted to say. My english skills are not so good, therefore it’s difficult for me to find the best sentences and words.
I’m not saying that Jerusalem is the best solution, I’m just saying that Jerusalem could be the key, and may be this solution will be approved by every country except (for sure) Isarail and USA.
August 3, 2006 في الساعة 2:30 am
Let’s consider a little history here…
a. 1176:
Why don’t Arabs, including Saladin, accept that their desire and intention to destroy the Crusader Kingdoms is the root cause of the conflict?
b. 1876:
Why don’t Indians, including Sioux, accept that their desire and intention to destroy the United States of America is the root cause of the conflict?
c. 1976:
Why don’t Blacks, including Zulus, accept that their desire and intention to destroy South Africa is the root cause of the conflict?
In each of these cases, a fairly well-established nation of relatively recent occupiers - which, like it or not, is what Israel is - found itself embroiled in recurrent conflict with the people it had taken its land from. The root cause of the conflict is obvious: land theft.
Each case saw a different outcome: all-out victory for the locals in Crusader-era Palestine, all-out victory for the invaders in the Dakotas, and coexistence - a state for all its people and a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, instead of a white homeland and a set of black homelands - in South Africa. JewishMan regards the b. outcome as the sine qua non for peace in the Middle East: his attitude is that the Palestinians must accept that Israel has successfully taken over some fraction larger than 78% of Palestine for keeps (the precise fraction is constantly growing), and the refugees, who constitute the majority of all Palestinians, can forget about ever regaining their confiscated properties. A realistic attitude, no doubt - but as for promoting it as some kind of moral ideal, forget it!
Few if any Israelis seem to acknowledge what practically everyone else recognises: the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance (to say the least) over the land taken in 1948 - yes, all of Israel, like it or not. At this point many - probably most - Palestinians are willing to settle for a lot less, but you can’t seriously expect them or anyone else to suddenly decide they were wrong to “wish to destroy the State of Israel”*. The Jews still wanted to “return” to their former homeland after two millennia, yet you’re surprised that the Palestinians haven’t stopped wanting the same after just 58 years?
* Please note, since many Zionists seem to misunderstand this point: “destroy the State of Israel” obviously does not mean “kill off its citizens”, which would be an outrageous crime.
PS: You asked about sources for the synagogue bombings? Try http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/jewsofiraq.htm . (Accurate? I have no idea. Plausible, certainly.)
August 3, 2006 في الساعة 7:05 am
To Ekmul: Slogans and cliches, is that all that you have? Americans are a herd, and Bush is the dog? Can’t you come up with anything better than that?
Are you seriously suggesting that it took George Bush (whom I did not vote for) to convince me that what the 19 ARAB MURDERERS did has no justification whatever?
You’re just another apologist for murder and barbarism. Take it from me, buddy, and not because I’m Jewish, you’re armchair pseudo-intellectuals who go before a camera, or write in the press, that they “understand why they flew those airplanes into the buildings” are not doing your cause a favor. It just makes you look more, what shall we say, stupid? Unclear about the concept?
What makes you think that I would have the slightest interest in reading propaganda written by bigots, with a view toward understanding their motives? I know what their motives were, and so do you.
Finally, it is clear from your response that you have no grasp whatsoever of sarcasm or irony. Dude, I wasn’t apologizing for anything. Any idiot can see that.
There will never be an end to war until people have learned to love peace. And the tragedy, is, the whole middle east is in love with war. It will go on and on. Such a pity.
August 3, 2006 في الساعة 2:57 pm
Ugly Jewish American,
How can Palestinians love peace with the people who have stolen their homes. Who have massacred, raped and tortured their people for the past 60 years?
August 3, 2006 في الساعة 6:29 pm
YOU say that they have stolen their homes.
YOU say that they have massacred, raped and tortured.
I have no knowledge of these alleged attrocities. I do not know of any Jews who massacre, rape and torture people.
Growing up in America, in all my years, I was never taught to hate Arabs. I was never taught that it was desireable, or in our interest, as Americans, or as Jews, to displace people, or to harm them in any way. Neither the Jewish religious education that I received at my Temple as a child, nor the public school education that I received as a citizen, or in college as an adult, ever suggested, at any time, that it was the mission of our military, or the goal of our economic system, to occupy and oppress the people of the middle east. These accusations all come from the other side, and they are all false. Lies and propaganda.
Have you yourself been raped? Have you been massacred? Or are you just cheering on your team?
Before you rush to judgement about me, let me tell you that I’m quite the skeptic, regarding U.S. foreign policy. I opposed the Vietnam war, and I’m not terribly happy about the current involvement in Iraq. Unfortunately, the government is currently controlled by people who believe differently. But the miracle of America, something that I think people on your side of the world never understood, is that they don’t come for us in the middle of the night to arrest us when we speak out against our government’s policies. And we don’t have lawless people running around the countryside killing people who oppose the people who are in power.
Let me tell you how it looks from over here. The Israelis don’t want to occupy Lebanon. They don’t want to occupy Jordan. They sure as hell don’t want to occupy Syria. They’re not into conquest, no matter how strongly you wish to argue to the contrary.
Something else. Of all the countries in the Middle East, Israel is the only country that has never asked for, never required, never needed, to have United States military forces come into their territory to ensure their security. Tell me what other country in the Middle East can make that claim? They’re all fighting terrorists from within, and fighting each other, at the same time that they are all fighting with Israel. It’s Roller Derby with guns.
The when Israelis pulled out of Southern Lebanon, your precious Hizbollah used the time to stockpile arms to the sky for no other purpose than to launch attacks against Israel. And the government of Lebanon has either not been strong enough to stop them, or has acquiesed to it.
When the Israelis pulled out of Gaza your precious Hamas likewise used the time to stockpile arms and launch attacks against Israel. And during the entire intervening time the world has been witness to an endless parade of suicide bombers.
But the thing that I find so unbelievable is that whenever your “heroes” launch these unprovoked attacks, they then scream foul and bloody murder when there is a response in kind. Disproportionate response, they said. Hizbollah laid in sufficient arms for a long siege, it would seem. So, in a way, the critics of Israel are right. It would seem, given current developments, that the response from Israel has not been “proportionate” enough.
War is all hell. No one in their right mind would seek it. But it seems that the Arabs do… But they want it both ways. They want their enemy to just sit there and take it. Tell, me, are you really that surprised that the Israelis mounted a full military response to having thousands of missiles lobbed over their border into their cities? If you are, then you are naive to the extreme.
Words to live by: You don’t tug on Superman’s cape… You don’t spit into the wind… You don’t pull the mask off of the old Lone Ranger… and you don’t mess around with Jim.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 4:03 am
I beg everyone here to watch this video to explain why Arabs and Palestinians are angry at Israel. I watched it and it is worth your time. These are interviews with well known figures, and contain a lot of facts and statistics which will shed more light on the lack of understanding towards the Arab point of view on part of the West.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 4:30 am
“the whole middle east is in love with war. It will go on and on. Such a pity”
Based on who?
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 4:32 am
“I have no knowledge of these alleged attrocities. I do not know of any Jews who massacre, rape and torture people.”
And that, is the reason why such atrocities keep happening, because the Jewish run media in the US doesn’t report these crimes. Otherwise, the world will see Israel’s real face. It is your duty to you search for the trueth. We see these things with our own eyes, you’re are the one who will have to prove that they never happened.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 4:38 am
Jewishman:
Since I replied to every sentance you wrote, I expect you to reply to everything I wrote.
Avoiding my post only shows that you know we are right, but your pride holds you from admiting it.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 5:58 am
Hey, Hasan! That’s some film! Heart rending. Really.
Here’s one, and I beg you, and everyone here to view it as well.
For those of you who don’t have the time, it shows a bunch of your friends sawing off the head of a man that they kidnapped. It’s really interesting! He squeals like a pig, until his voicebox doesn’t work anymore. And then his headless corpse makes this wonderful wheezing sound as it attempts to breathe.
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=101500
If you back up the URL to …/videos/ you’ll be presented with a lot more entertaining videos to watch. You should be pleased and proud that the world gets to see this. It makes it easier for us to understand you.
Sorry, pal. This is your legacy to the world. This is how we will remember you. It is your, uh, duty, to prove that these things are just fabrications.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 6:05 am
Sorry people… here’s the menu of the video collection URL…
Knock yourselves out.
http://inhonor.net/videos.php
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 3:04 pm
T.E. Lawrence:
We as Muslims have the ability and the logic to distance our self from these few fanatics, while Israelis cannot escape their crimes on palestinians, because they cannot distance themselves from Israel.
We don’t have to associate our selves with them, and no one has the right to generalize the action of a few crazy idiots on 1.4 billion people.
Israel’s actions are Israeli’s actions. They only happen due to the occupation. This is the difference.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 5:45 pm
Jewishman:
You press, rather insistently, for all of your Arab / Muslim readers to “acknowledge” several assumed “truths” about the Arabs, especially Palestinians. Yet you consistently refuse to admit that perhaps your military does target civilians (even though your own Minister of Justice has said that there are no longer any innocent civilians in the South, and so forth, which is basically a green light for the military to do what it will). Why are bridges, hospitals, power plants being targeted? Why is a Christian neighborhood bombed? Was the Gaza beach massacre an example of the “target precision” you praise? This is why, I think, many Arabs or Muslims find it difficult to have any dialogue with supporters of Israel. I’m sorry, but a lot of what you are saying seems like it’s coming off of some sheet of talking points. Like you’re talking at your readers, and not always to them. Someone writes, “Islam is the problem,” and you don’t respond, leaving me, and I’m sure other readers, to believe that you agree. But if anyone criticizes anything about Israel, you’re in their faces. I will give you credit, however, you are at least exhibiting some manners and talking in a civilized, calm tone. That is more than one can expect from supporters of your state here in the US. “Ugly Jewish American” says “the middle east loves peace,” and that’s the result of the propaganda we’re taught here about Arabs and Muslims — they’re not like the rest of us. They don’t love their children and they don’t want to live in peace. Therefore, it is acceptable to bomb a picknicking family or a convoy of cars with white flags hanging out the window or children in a shelter. We can just shrug and say, “Hey, those people brought it on themselves.”
Anyone who says they are not taught to hate Arabs here, Jewish or otherwise, is either lying or living on another planet. People talk about anti-Semitism among Arabs or movie stars, but not one person is willing to address the anti-Semitism among Jews and others in this country (the Arabs being the largest group of Semites). I had to stop reading the newspapers and magazines written for the Jewish community because the racial / religious hate propaganda in them made me sick to my stomach. I once saw a Jewish (Orthodox, judging by the bad wig on her head) woman holding a sign with a cartoon of an Arab man. He had bulging eyes, a giant hook nose, a scruffy beard, flies flying around him, an evil grin on his face, a little bit of drool coming out of the corner of his mouth. The text on her sign was something to the effect that Arabs are a threat to America and we need to kill them. This wasn’t at some right wing Kahane Chai rally. This was at a mainstream rally here in DC. Her sign made me sad, that this is how far Jewish-America has come in demonizing the Arabs. Take that cartoon back 60 years, replace the checkered scarf with a kippah and you have any given Nazi cartoon about the Jews.
Arabs need to take some responsibility for their behavior or the things they say. Stop blaming everything under the sun on Israel — although I think the leaders do this more than the man on the street. The people on the “Arab Street” know full well that their kings and presidents exploit the Israel situation to try and distract them from real issues. But what about when Israel does things beyond what is acceptable? We can start with illegal settlements and end with the killing of women, children, and male non-combatants. We can talk about the rhetoric of racial and religious hate, including the idea that the European immigrants and their children are intellectually, morally, and physically superior to the native Arabs. We can talk about the fact that American tax dollars and charitible contributions from Americans financially and morally bolster the fanatical settlers, that we provide them with weaponry, that we approve of their brutality against the native people in the areas where they build their settlements. You haven’t seen the face of hate until you’ve seen a Christian preacher praising a Jewish settler for killing some local Arab who got uppity about protecting his olive trees. Why is there no outrage about American Christians and Jews who provide the financial means for the hate in Israel and America to continue?
I think Arabs understand Jews more than Jewishman is giving them credit for. But the question is do the Jews or Israelis understand the Arab situation? Jewishman is basically saying that, as a psychic, his crystal ball tells him that if the Palestinians were ever afforded human rights and the dignity of a state, they would try to destroy the Israelis. What he’s leaving unspoken is that therefore, it is the right of the Jewish state to destroy the Palestinians and make sure they are suppressed and denied these rights.
I’m going now. I really don’t think there is any point to writing more or coming back to read, since it will likely all be excuses, and dissimulation.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 5:56 pm
Hasan, everyone has the ability to distance themselves from that barbarism. Sadly, it doesn’t seem like anyone in your part of the world has bothered to do so. There has not been one… NOT ONE…denunciation of these murders from your little corner of the world. Rather, there has been widespread praise of their actions, and the usual statements from people representing themselves as “clerics”, or “respected journalists”, from Egypt to Indonesia, justifying them. I have yet to see any reportage of any arab, or for that matter, muslim, political leader, anywhere in the world, excoriating these acts of barbarism.
I agree with you… you don’t have to associate yourselves with them. But enough of you do.
I would point out that there are more than a few of these “crazy idiots”, as you have chosen to describe them. But I don’t think that they are crazy at all. I don’t believe that they should be accorded the potential of an insanity defense. I think that they are just plain evil.
Unfortunately, when people see this from your sanctimonious and self-righteous culture, they tend to get the wrong idea. They get the idea that you all approve of it, and that given the opportunity, that your environment of unceasing paranoia and hatred has produced a generation of irretrievably evil people, who have stepped completely outside the circle of civilized behavior.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 7:47 pm
I have been reading the dialog but not interjecting for a while because I am learning from the posts and thinking about each of them. My main purpose in starting this dialog was not to score points. I wanted to find out more about what Arabs and their supporters believe. In that respect, this has been very useful indeed. I have learned things I didn’t know about what they believe.
One part of this dialog that intrigues me is the insistence by some that Palestinians and Jews can live together in a shared state under a one-state solution. I am 100% sure it would be a bloodbath much like Iraq today or Algeria a few years ago. (Not that I am personally in favor of it anyway because I want a Jewish state.) Has anyone here who has proposed a one-state solution had a change of heart and come to the conclusion that it wouldn’t work in practise? Or are the one-state solutionists sticking firmly to their positions that we would live together peacefully in a single state?
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 9:23 pm
In Lebanon, Sunnis, Shia, Maronites, Orthodox, Druze, and Alawis all live together at peace under a democratic goverment - or were doing so until Israel’s recent invasion! In Syria, Sunnis, Shia, Maronites, Orthodox, Druze, Alawis, Yezidis, and even a few Jews live together at peace, although under a brutal dictatorship. Algeria happens to be one of the most religiously uniform countries in the Arab world, with roughly 99% Maliki Sunnis; confessional and ethnic differences had absolutely nothing to do with its civil war. Multi-confessional states are possible in the Middle East just as they are anywhere else, and Palestine will be, at the very least, a state for both Muslims and Christians whether Israel chooses to remain that discriminatory anachronism, a “Jewish state”, or not.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 9:43 pm
Thanks. I am trying to get to some of the bottom lines here. I believe that any reasonable person must base any policy on the assumption that there is more than a 51% chance of a major civil war between Palestinian Arabs and Jews in a single state. In other words, more likely than not. I believe that the correct percentage is 100. Now that is not a pro-Israel or pro-Arab position. It does not attribute blame. It is a neutral position based on reality.
Are you saying that there is a zero percent chance of a civil war in such a single state? Surely not!
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 10:11 pm
In the unlikely event of a one-state solution, with full right of return for all Palestinian refugees (and regaining of their property) and continued right of “return” for Jews, and equal rights for all citizens, all the driving factors of the civil war - which is already taking place, and has been for years - would be gone. In any two-state solution, many of the most basic driving factors will remain unaddressed. Of course there’s a non-zero probability of war - that’s unavoidable - but it seems obvious to me that a one-state solution lowers, rather than increases, the odds.
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 11:10 pm
to Ugly jewish American:”YOU say that they have stolen their homes.
YOU say that they have massacred, raped and tortured.
I have no knowledge of these alleged attrocities. I do not know of any Jews who massacre, rape and torture people.”
I hope the links that Hassen gave us changed your mind. As we say in french:”only STUPIDS can not change their mind”. Are you still thinking you are not a part of the herd? Do you really think that american media controlled by jews are giving you the best informations? WAKE UP dude. If you have two ears,two eyes and only one mouth it’s to listen and read more than you speak. So try to learn more about each thing that happens in this world. God gave a brain to use it, so try to analyse what you listen to and read. Don’t take the informations as they are and always have a doubt even if all the medias in USA are saying the same thing. Try to listen to other medias around the world. I’m not telling you that you have to believe them, I’m telling you that you can get the informations that are not related by american medis and analyse them,try to know more about them to get the truth.
Now let me ask you a question: did you ever heard about any army in this world that did something good in a war? Of course no. So don’t tell us that you have no knowledge of atrocities, it’s an easy hidden thing that any IDIOT in this world can guess and you have to try to learn more about those atrocities if you really want to make a dialog.
I hope the words stupid and idiot won’t make you pissed off (I’m still learning english and I tried to use the same language you’re using) , for me it didn’t have any effect because I know that I’m right. In fact, you made me happy by writing these words because it seems now (with hassan’s help by providing such a good link) that you are going to open your eyes and ears and try to understand other people. If you don’t, as I said before “only stupids can not change their mind”.
Ugly jewish American “Something else. Of all the countries in the Middle East, Israel is the only country that has never asked for, never required, never needed, to have United States military forces come into their territory to ensure their security.” Of course the military forces will be in Lebanon not in Jew’s territory.
To Hassan: thank you Hassan for the link it was very interesting, and I guess not only for me.
to jewishman: even if you didn’t say yes or no, thank you for saying 100% because now we learned more about your point of view. I’m not saying that you are wrong or right, I’m just saying that you gave an information for this dialog and above all you explained what you think and that is for me and I thnik for everyone here the best way to build a dialog (so I apologize for my insistence)
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 11:27 pm
Eckmul:
I am not sure from reading your posts whether you are in favor of a one state solution, but if you are will you now change your mind? As you say “only STUPIDS can not change their mind.”
August 4, 2006 في الساعة 11:30 pm
Sorry, I forgot
to Jack Amstrong: “There is a law in Islam that once Muslims have possessed a territory in their conquest of the world (as commanded by Allah through his prophet Muhammad), that land can never be relinquished. Islam cannot tolerate having territory which it once controlled regain its independence. Nor can non-Muslims reign over Muslims. Having taken Jerusalem in 641, Muslims controlled all of what had once been Israel for centuries. The Turkish Ottoman Empire held the entire Middle East for 400 years until 1917. It is therefore an unacceptable reversal of Islamic history for Jews now to be in control of any of their Promised Land. Thus, as soon as the UN partitioned “Palestine” in 1947, the Arabs rioted in protest.”
Read history and you will see that Arabs lost a lot of territories (for example spain) whitout trying to fight for them. As I said Palestine is special, I mean it’s a “holly” territory.